okay, I guess I'll try this again. I got nervous with my last attempt to post. There is a wealth of knowledge and a depth of understanding, here in this tribe, that I find intimidating but I'm seriously seeking insight. And my own thought processes feel shallow and ill formed in comparason, but I won't compare at this point. I'm just trying to work this out.
My biggie fear (and it hasn't told me if it's existential or just regular, I asked it, I swear!) is honesty, openness and disclosure: all these things leading to connectedness with other human beings. Come to tea, lovlies.
I'm seeing this as a problem because aside from my much adored blood relations, I don't have friendships or relationships that have lasted over 3 years. A year is usually long enough for me to get uncomfortable with someone knowing me, or one of the many skins I wear. I have a closet full of personas, all elaborately constructed and maintained. And not just metaphorically. I love to be in costume. I love being unrecognizable and I love love love a clean slate, fresh start, new beginning, and not knowing a single person in a room. Being an introvert who is really shy and awkward socially is my real me. I'm an extroverted introvert, so peole who know me in RL might be really surprised to hear that. I think I come off as super confidant, exhibitionistic, flamboyant, gregarious, snobbish?? I don't know about snobbish, but usually I'm not trying to be friendly, especially in public places. I'm trying to maintain my anonymitity (butchered the sp) in a social context as long as possible because when I know too many people I feel compelled to leave. The other thing is that I actually make friends really easily. And I don't like being lonley. who does?? so... I have all these friendships that I take seriously in that I obesess about how others react to me, and did I offend? was I appropriate? what is our current interpersonal status??? and I feel the need to give give give and help and nurture and I feel guilty if any of these things are reciprocated. I don't know what's wrong with me. This is the part where my heart is pounding because I'm saying real things and I don't know if I'm doing this right and I want to appologize to anyone who is reading this. I'm so sorry!
The best horoscope I ever had gave me premission to take up space in the world and make noise.
So... at any given moment I am pretty much ready to drop my entire social group, sabatoge every relationship untill it's over and find a new group to drop into, and be part of for a while. But I do this over and over and over. It makes me sad. My guess is that it is a lack of honesty or even reality in my relationships that makes them unviable. So, tea time now. Welcome honesty. this small public display of honesty is practice, and I hope to one day use this tool in a real relationship. I posted something honest in my blog recently for practice as well. I listed it as friends only because even though it's the casual stuff of everyday living, putting words to my feelings makes me feel ripped open and completely vulnerable. People's reactions were overwhelmingly warm, caring, supportive, insightful, and paralled my openness and honesty with the same. so I flip flop between bliss and panic to that connectedness. ahhaha oh man!
It's definitly time to grow.
My biggie fear (and it hasn't told me if it's existential or just regular, I asked it, I swear!) is honesty, openness and disclosure: all these things leading to connectedness with other human beings. Come to tea, lovlies.
I'm seeing this as a problem because aside from my much adored blood relations, I don't have friendships or relationships that have lasted over 3 years. A year is usually long enough for me to get uncomfortable with someone knowing me, or one of the many skins I wear. I have a closet full of personas, all elaborately constructed and maintained. And not just metaphorically. I love to be in costume. I love being unrecognizable and I love love love a clean slate, fresh start, new beginning, and not knowing a single person in a room. Being an introvert who is really shy and awkward socially is my real me. I'm an extroverted introvert, so peole who know me in RL might be really surprised to hear that. I think I come off as super confidant, exhibitionistic, flamboyant, gregarious, snobbish?? I don't know about snobbish, but usually I'm not trying to be friendly, especially in public places. I'm trying to maintain my anonymitity (butchered the sp) in a social context as long as possible because when I know too many people I feel compelled to leave. The other thing is that I actually make friends really easily. And I don't like being lonley. who does?? so... I have all these friendships that I take seriously in that I obesess about how others react to me, and did I offend? was I appropriate? what is our current interpersonal status??? and I feel the need to give give give and help and nurture and I feel guilty if any of these things are reciprocated. I don't know what's wrong with me. This is the part where my heart is pounding because I'm saying real things and I don't know if I'm doing this right and I want to appologize to anyone who is reading this. I'm so sorry!
The best horoscope I ever had gave me premission to take up space in the world and make noise.
So... at any given moment I am pretty much ready to drop my entire social group, sabatoge every relationship untill it's over and find a new group to drop into, and be part of for a while. But I do this over and over and over. It makes me sad. My guess is that it is a lack of honesty or even reality in my relationships that makes them unviable. So, tea time now. Welcome honesty. this small public display of honesty is practice, and I hope to one day use this tool in a real relationship. I posted something honest in my blog recently for practice as well. I listed it as friends only because even though it's the casual stuff of everyday living, putting words to my feelings makes me feel ripped open and completely vulnerable. People's reactions were overwhelmingly warm, caring, supportive, insightful, and paralled my openness and honesty with the same. so I flip flop between bliss and panic to that connectedness. ahhaha oh man!
It's definitly time to grow.
posted by:
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Vancouver
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 12:05 PMTakes notes. Moves on. What can be done? Don't move away. And don't say you are going to move away at any moment. Don't tell yourself that it is a good or easy option. Stop feeling that it is the best option. Yeah, it is hard to maintain friendships. Really, really hard at times. You have to be willing to say when you've been wrong and to allow others to be wrong or do wrong, to make you feel badly for whatever reason, yet, at the same time, work with them and yourself to make it all worthwhile somehow. I think the main issue is that if you seek to always avoid pain by moving on to the undiscovered country then you are just working on loneliness in some aspect or another.
You could also try the QA tribe if you aren't in there already. Some people learn to be happy in their quirkiness and come to grips with their sometimes ephemeral friendship styles too. Reference
tribes.tribe.net/8d0646fc-...1a64884b92 -
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 2:17 PMWow, so I visited your link and found this, which is like a lightswitch coming on!
"I do beleive that in some respects time alone can cause "Quirkyness" in the sense that one spends their time thinking in a situation where they do not have to consider themselves in the context of social conventions. We have a mask which is our "public face", a mask underneath it for the people we have familiarity with, and then beneath that more layers like Russian dolls going into infinity. When a person spends all of their time with others they start to beleive that the mask is themselves... and these masks don't really have a lot of individuality expressed in them... they are more or less archetypes. But those who spend time alone long enough define themselves as being whatever it is that lies underneath all of the masks, and in doing so they sometimes betray a nature around others that doesn't seem congruent with the mask they wear for others.... that is being "quirky" so long as it doesn't harm anyone."
I've spent about half a year living outside of community with other people (not working, and staying home alone most of the time except a few hours a week to go dancing), and maybe this is actually an underlying factor that has led to all the crazy 4AM introspective journeys. But this is definitly a good thing because before I had all this time, I didn't recognize the cycle I was moving in. hahaha which meant I was a lot more "fine" with it.
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 12:13 PM"honesty" does NOT equal "full disclosure" ~ I found this out the proverbial "hard way"
many people say they want 'honesty', but they honestly want you to pay attention to their sensitive boundaries concerning 'how far is far enough' to satisfy them & keep the rest to yourself.....
to put it another way, "You want the 'truth'? You can't handle the Truth!" ~ but I suggest attempting to be 'nicer' about it 'cuz when you dare people they do & say all sorts of dumb shit that you didn't want to get into in the first place!
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 12:34 PMhi MaryEllen, sorry, do you think you could clarify that last part for me?
emily -
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 1:21 PMwhat part of "that last part" do you mean?
love all-ways,
mem
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 2:02 PMwell, I guess I should clarify my particular desire surrounding honesty. Instead of having my friends interact only with personas I choose to reveal I think it would be more helpful if I was myself, in the way that a cat is itself without appology. openness: instead of hiding my feelings and oppinions so that everyone is comfortable and everything goes smoothly without my dissent (even though it sometimes gives me the door mat feeling) I think there might be value in being able to say things like, "My feelings about x are this this and this." So I'm not really sure where I've given the impression I'm daring anyone to do anything. I'm just trying to come to grips with the shy me in my mind never wanting anyone to know that I'm not who I pretend to be.
My thought is that if I can let my friends know me, they might still want to be friends with me, and I might not get as fed up maintaining something I'm not.
I found the practical advice not to have intentions on bailing out all the time quite helpful. I've just been starting to realize how my intentions create the world I live in and that I can shape and change my reality, even with simple things like attitude. If I can start beleiving that this amazing person I'm friends with now will be a lifelong friend, that connection is a lot more likely to happen than if I'm reinforcing my beleifs that my friendships don't last more than a year.
thanks for the input on this topic! -
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 4:48 PMYou sound a lot like me, and I'm a recovering intimacy avoider and also an Eneagram Five. Don't have any really compelling advice. People are just people and I am in control. As I realize that, I am less disappointed and less likely to drop them.
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Re: honesty
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 9:55 AMYour truest friends are the ones who look upon you stripped naked of all your defences, shells, personas, etc to see the You behind the mask, and they smile. "Warts and all" they look and are not repulsed but honored. And in that moment when you reveal your true self to them they are most likely to reveal their true self to you. Their warts and all. A true friend will revel in your differences, will take joy in your uniqueness and give that joy back through their own uniqueness.
There is risk to this. Fear of rejection is a very powerful (de)motivator. You can reveal your Self and they can turn away in disgust or mock you or reject you. These people are not worthy to call friends. In the business world, and in many casual social settings, you will likely have to keep your defences up. Your personas intact. This is a normal part of living, protecting your true self from casual contact.
To make things easier on yourself try limiting the number of personas you adopt, even to the point of having one basically blank/bland persona. This is the face you show the casual contact, with maybe a hint of the depths behind the wall. You will be more honest with the general public, and yourself, by doing this: instead of pretending to be someone you're not (lying) you show them nothing (or very little).
For those people whom you've grown close too, even if it's just the familiarity of long exposure in the workplace, try peeling back the layers just a bit. Don't show everything at once, give hints and glimpses. If someone reacts positively you can reveal more. For people like us it's a slow process, a building of trust.
You may never get to the point where you wonder why you were so closed up for so long, most people don't go through such a radical change of personality. I can, however, assure you that the reward for the risk of opening yourself to another person is well worth it. You may only have one or two deep friendships, but what you gain out of them will be immense and well worth the risk. -
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Re: honesty
Fri, January 19, 2007 - 11:04 PMCall me cynical but the reward of taking the risk is sometimes worth it and sometimes not. With experience and maturity comes understanding and empathy. So, some of us hide from that, for whatever reason. We fear the pain that is required, doubt our own and others' abilities to be or become decent people. And I don't wonder too much that that happens since there is so much pain in life. The trick is to realize that we are all in the same boat in one way or another. It takes work to row that boat in a direction, any direction, and it takes even more learning and experience to learn which boat you want to be in. Some people have boats with only one person in it, themselves. Others seek a good boat and are never satisfied with the boats they are in. Still others are happy in the boat they got when they were growing up and they stick with that. The main point though is that we all have to row and then we have to learn to row in unison...if we want to. Modern society gives many of us this luxury to choose our boat.
So, first, I'm glad that I live in such a wealthy society. Next, glad that as human beings we all have potential. Finally, I'm wary of all the boats and so many captains. -
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Re: honesty
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 1:18 AM"The better part of valor is discretion." ~ some famous writer guy & who is 'prolly famous for good reason
love all-ways,
mem -
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Re: honesty
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 10:57 AMIf you can sing it, it's real.
If I can play with it, it's mine.
I dance with anyone who will dance with me.
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 15, 2007 - 7:48 PMwell, i'm impressed by your self-awareness.
maybe one aspect of your behavior (leaving one group for another) is your wish to always be in control. recognize that even in your ephemeral relationship people may see beyond your mask. you can't really ever control how you're perceived. and that's kind of a beautiful thing. you're more than even you know.
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Re: honesty
Sat, January 20, 2007 - 12:33 PMthankyou folk for all the insights and noodle fodder. I feel quite rewarded for this public revelation with ideas and conclusions I would not have drawn on my own. I've never considered the possibility that a desire for control might motivate my restraints in the depth of connectedness I have allowed myself with others. It bears examination. Also, the concept that a persona can deliver varying degrees of 'self', and keep integrity to 'self' in mild or potent doses, seems like a managable way to have real interactions. In any case, it cuts through the bs that real relationships are better off without anyway. And as always with this tribe, there have been interesting metaphors and statements about the human condition that will deepen and enliven my late night ponderances for quite a while to come. I really appreciate all the imput.
in*joy! emily -
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 22, 2007 - 9:20 PMWe walk through life expecting to be treated as we treat others. We often feel disspointed when they do not return the empathy we feel for them. But then again we are products of our environment, we bite the world before it bites us. What causes this , what can be done to make us hang around to sort it out instead of reinventing ourselves and starting with a clean slate in a new place with new people. Man I wish I knew the answer to that , I would bottle it and sell it , well that and a time machine patent . I would obviously test it first myself , and attempt to go back and rebuild all the bridges I've burned in the past , in my haste to get out of dodge when the going got tough. Some of those bridges are still glowing very hot in the not so distant past. I feel your dilemma , I can relate so well, wish I could give you more solutions.
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Re: honesty
Mon, January 22, 2007 - 11:07 PMWe've all burned a few bridges in our time I suspect. It is part of the human condition that sometimes we let chance or circumstance or distraction get the better of us. Plus, it seems easier at the time to just say to heck with someone who we feel is causing us to lose sleep or money or "energy" from being around...even though, sometimes, they aren't necessarily the main cause of our own anxiety. -
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Re: honesty
Wed, January 24, 2007 - 8:42 AMI don't have friendships or relationships that have lasted over 3 years
lol, it's odd that you mention this. I've noticed the same cycle also, for quite a while now. What is it about 3 yrs? weird.
i think sometimes honesty gets mixed with openness. -
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Re: honesty
Fri, January 26, 2007 - 9:34 AMI have friendships that've lasted up to 15 years. The really "transitional" ones only last 5 years.
Mostly, i would say its about enduring. Does a particular friendshi help you to grow into being a betterh human being, and/or, do you do that for someone else?
Forgiveness and Compassion are the keys, imho. Understand you don't ever *truly* know someone else's experience. You can only walk beside them.
This is not advice, these are my own thoughts to myself. I am just sharing.
Hope it works out, this processing! -
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Re: honesty
Sat, March 10, 2007 - 1:48 PMI think we tend to throw around the term "friend" in much the same manner we throw around the term "love." There is a big difference in a friend and an acquaintance just as there is a big difference in love and lust. One set of terms has more to do with a sort of here today gone tomorrow simplicity. The other two suggest extended time and a hell of a lot of incredibly hard work. So one might consider where the bibbest payoffs are.
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